Toronto Maple Leafs

[SensFan07]

http://www.the6thsens.com/2010-articles/march/coltonorr141.html

"So with the boxing scorecards giving Carkner the nod, here's a list of things that Orr could have been alluding to with his three-finger salute last night:

1. He was reminding Leafs fans of how many General Managers the organization has endured since their last playoff appearance.
2. Colton Orr counts how many years the Leafs have to wait for their next 1st round draft pick after a fight with Matt Carkner. ~ Tim, The 6th Sens Twitter
3. “He was probably celebrating because he had three shifts in the game or something."~ Matt Carkner
4. He was reminding Leafs fans of how many years were left on his contract.
5. He was simply indicating how many times he has repeated grade six.
6. His math was off, it's been more than 3 decades since the Leafs last won a Cup.
7. Three would be a new career high in goals for Orr.
8. He was providing the over/under threshold for the number of wins that the Leafs would get over the remainder of the schedule.
9. He was only referring to the fact that he wanted to be the third guy on his team -- Komisarek & Phaneuf -- to hook up with Elisha Cuthbert.
10. Unhappy with his ice-time, Orr was just sticking it to Ron Wilson and indicating the number of goals that Canada needed to beat the US."

[No Dice]

He was counting how many consecutive times the Leafs have knocked off the Sens in the playoffs.

[Stupid Fan]

Pretty funny stuff.

[SensFan07]

He was counting how many consecutive times the Leafs have knocked off the Sens in the playoffs.

Or was it the number of seasons since the Leafs made the playoffs? No, can't be, that would be 5....

[No Dice]

He was counting how many consecutive times the Leafs have knocked off the Sens in the playoffs.

Or was it the number of seasons since the Leafs made the playoffs? No, can't be, that would be 5....

Yea and I don't think any team benefits more from the Leafs not making the playoffs than the Senators... because now they don't have to worry about losing to them in the playoffs every year.

[No Dice]

Really, what does an improving team like Toronto want with Bertuzzi?

I'm not saying I would advocate taking Bertuzzi... I'm saying that Burke might take him.  He's Mr. Belligerent.

Really, there are so many gaps in the lineup, I think the smart move is to try to get some filler players, hopefully sign them to some reasonable contracts, so that they can be moved at a trade deadline in the next few years...

Interesting about Kadri... I'm not sure that Kadri's ready next year, though.  He still seems to make stupid decisions with the puck, go for overly risky plays and the like.  He'll likely get some time in the bigs, but I doubt he'll be up for more than 9 or whatever the limit is before he'd have to be waived.

So if I'm right and Kadri's not there all next year (which I think Toronto has to at least prepare for), who's the play-maker with Kessel next year?

I don't think we have much of a chance at a top playmaker unless someone offers one up for Kaberle. I'm not very optimistic about our chances of signing one of the top UFA forwards.

Personally I'm hoping we can deal Kaberle for a good playmaker because it would be a big waste to leave Kessel with nobody to play with next year. He's got a lot of talent but it's being wasted playing with guys that aren't at his level.

[Stupid Fan]

Fair enough... I would add to that the caveat that I would want to ensure it's a young playmaker.  A RFA as part of a package, with a pick, maybe (depending on the RFA, naturally)?  Or a young one with some years left before his RFA year?

Much as I like Kaberle, and happy as I am to hear that they're willing to talk a contract extension this summer, the sad truth is that without good draft picks this year or next year, they need to move some of their veterans for better prospects/picks/youth.  If they keep Kaberle, they really don't have much to peddle as rentals for next year (Sjostrom?  I doubt he would fetch much, and I'd rather keep him longer term if that's possible.  Giguere if he plays well?  Then we're without a starting goalie - it would be better to capitalize on the fact that Giggy will not want to move his family again and will likely re-sign, if he's playing well).

So if they don't move Kaberle, they're left with essentially the same crop next year (the only good Burke-style play-maker available this year being Marleau, and Toronto being very likely unable to sign him, given their existing cap situation and the fact that Marleau likely has little reason to want to play in Toronto).  If only someone could have foreseen that trading away so many high picks would negatively effect a rebuild...

[Sharks2009]

Fair enough... I would add to that the caveat that I would want to ensure it's a young playmaker.  A RFA as part of a package, with a pick, maybe (depending on the RFA, naturally)?  Or a young one with some years left before his RFA year?

Much as I like Kaberle, and happy as I am to hear that they're willing to talk a contract extension this summer, the sad truth is that without good draft picks this year or next year, they need to move some of their veterans for better prospects/picks/youth.  If they keep Kaberle, they really don't have much to peddle as rentals for next year (Sjostrom?  I doubt he would fetch much, and I'd rather keep him longer term if that's possible.  Giguere if he plays well?  Then we're without a starting goalie - it would be better to capitalize on the fact that Giggy will not want to move his family again and will likely re-sign, if he's playing well).

So if they don't move Kaberle, they're left with essentially the same crop next year (the only good Burke-style play-maker available this year being Marleau, and Toronto being very likely unable to sign him, given their existing cap situation and the fact that Marleau likely has little reason to want to play in Toronto).  If only someone could have foreseen that trading away so many high picks would negatively effect a rebuild...

Most people thought they were a better team than bottom...well, two at this point.  So trading the higher picks wasn't supposed to be as big of an issue.  (I miss leaf-fan in this instance! )

Burke's drafting has not been stellar by any stretch of the imagination, so how good would an 8th or 9th pick have been? 

I really think that Burke thought Savard would stay unsigned to the summer, and he would be able to re-unite Savard and Kessel.

Look past the Kessel deal to options now - what's done is done.

[NonMint]

Fair enough... I would add to that the caveat that I would want to ensure it's a young playmaker.  A RFA as part of a package, with a pick, maybe (depending on the RFA, naturally)?  Or a young one with some years left before his RFA year?

Much as I like Kaberle, and happy as I am to hear that they're willing to talk a contract extension this summer, the sad truth is that without good draft picks this year or next year, they need to move some of their veterans for better prospects/picks/youth.  If they keep Kaberle, they really don't have much to peddle as rentals for next year (Sjostrom?  I doubt he would fetch much, and I'd rather keep him longer term if that's possible.  Giguere if he plays well?  Then we're without a starting goalie - it would be better to capitalize on the fact that Giggy will not want to move his family again and will likely re-sign, if he's playing well).

So if they don't move Kaberle, they're left with essentially the same crop next year (the only good Burke-style play-maker available this year being Marleau, and Toronto being very likely unable to sign him, given their existing cap situation and the fact that Marleau likely has little reason to want to play in Toronto).  If only someone could have foreseen that trading away so many high picks would negatively effect a rebuild...

Most people thought they were a better team than bottom...well, two at this point.  So trading the higher picks wasn't supposed to be as big of an issue.  (I miss leaf-fan in this instance! )

Burke's drafting has not been stellar by any stretch of the imagination, so how good would an 8th or 9th pick have been? 

I really think that Burke thought Savard would stay unsigned to the summer, and he would be able to re-unite Savard and Kessel.

Look past the Kessel deal to options now - what's done is done.

It never entered my mind that the leafs were anything other than a bottom 5 team. You have a team that subtracted most of their halfway decent players, and resplaced them with Kessel, Schenn and Kadri. Even with the additions of Giguere and Phaneuf, there are only brightspots in the black whole that is the Toronto Maple Leafs. If they had played it smart, retained draft picks and drafted well, in two to three years they would have a team (or at least a semblance of life). All Burke has done is turn old mediocrity into new, Burke-embossed mediocrity.

Let me put it this way: Looking at the leafs, I feel better about the Oilers.

-NonMint

[dougie]

Listen. All the Leafs are missing is a 1st line center, to win big faceoffs, score, set up his wingers. Oh, yeah, and maybe a big blue-line leader, that would really complete things. And a goalie. That would be the complete ticket. Yep, a real stopper. Oh, and those two wingers I mentioned earlier. The Leafs would need those, too, I suppose. So there, what's that, five guys? Once they go out and get those five then all they'll need is 15 more........

[No Dice]

Fair enough... I would add to that the caveat that I would want to ensure it's a young playmaker.  A RFA as part of a package, with a pick, maybe (depending on the RFA, naturally)?  Or a young one with some years left before his RFA year?

Much as I like Kaberle, and happy as I am to hear that they're willing to talk a contract extension this summer, the sad truth is that without good draft picks this year or next year, they need to move some of their veterans for better prospects/picks/youth.  If they keep Kaberle, they really don't have much to peddle as rentals for next year (Sjostrom?  I doubt he would fetch much, and I'd rather keep him longer term if that's possible.  Giguere if he plays well?  Then we're without a starting goalie - it would be better to capitalize on the fact that Giggy will not want to move his family again and will likely re-sign, if he's playing well).

So if they don't move Kaberle, they're left with essentially the same crop next year (the only good Burke-style play-maker available this year being Marleau, and Toronto being very likely unable to sign him, given their existing cap situation and the fact that Marleau likely has little reason to want to play in Toronto).  If only someone could have foreseen that trading away so many high picks would negatively effect a rebuild...

Most people thought they were a better team than bottom...well, two at this point.  So trading the higher picks wasn't supposed to be as big of an issue.  (I miss leaf-fan in this instance! )

Burke's drafting has not been stellar by any stretch of the imagination, so how good would an 8th or 9th pick have been? 

I really think that Burke thought Savard would stay unsigned to the summer, and he would be able to re-unite Savard and Kessel.

Look past the Kessel deal to options now - what's done is done.

His drafting has actually been quite good. In Vancouver he set that team up with Kesler and the Sedins, pretty much the long-term foundation of their offense.

[Stupid Fan]

Exactly my point, dougie - their actual needs are for 2 1st liners, 1 or 2 2nd liners, a 3rd liner, and 1 or 2 defencemen (without losing anyone they have now).  There's no way to fill that many holes without overpaying by getting them all through free agency.

I appreciate that Sharks09 (and probably No Dice, and heck probably most people here) want me to finally move on, but I said from the beginning of this season that Toronto would be at the bottom of the standings.  I  had hoped not a lottery pick team, but I didn't rule it out (my prediction was drafting 8th).  I re-evaluated that though, once I saw what disappointments (to me at least) Komisarek and Beauchemin are (the former much more than the latter).  I gave them the first dozen games or so, and then decided they were likely going to finish even worse.  Burke should have known at least as well as I did how bad this team was, even with his signings.

I have always said that this team needs too many people - needs to have a core in place that you can only build via the draft, rather than trying to rebuild via trade, as Leaf-fan suggested was reasonable.  That is the tweaking that you do once you have a decent core.

I appreciate that what's done is done, but the Kessel trade isn't all in the past for me.  I've said that if a #1 pick goes to Boston this year as a result, I'm done with this team.  So in this instance, it is still very much a live issue.  And that if it's not a #1 pick, I still might be done with this team... I don't know if I can get over how much I hate that deal.  It breaks my heart to a degree to think of putting behind me the decades of loyalty I had for this team, but every botched, terrible move of quick fixes breaks my heart too.  I may be a stupid fan in the sense of always coming back to this team for more disappointment (which is what I said in my introductory post in this forum), but even I have a limit as to what I'll take before finally calling my support of this team over.

As for what I would do looking forward?  I'll post on that next.  It's a good question, and one that will take some thought and planning... unlike what most recent Leafs GM think.

And Minty, you're being too kind to call this roster mediocre.  I would settle on the franchise performance in recent decades being mediocre, but this roster is awful.  I would wager half of the roster could not crack the lineup of half the teams in the league.

[Sharks2009]

I respect that SF...but (as much as I don't like the Leafs) I still think that the Kessel trade is something I would have done, with the team they had at that point.  At the time the deal was done, I didn't think the team would go down in the standings, therefore, still being an 8-10 pick in the draft. 

Hindsight is always 20-20...I know you said you wouldn't have done that trade from the get-go, SF, and so you had some good foresight, albight for the wrong reasons, IMO.

As much as it makes me laugh that this team is so terrible (being anti-Leaf and all), I am starting to think it is a bit ridiculous that Leaf fans can't even have a team to cheer for at this point.  A competitive Leaf team falling short in the playoffs is more amusing than a team that doesn't even have a chance to win games. 

[dougie]

If it shows anything about the current state of the NHL, Toronto's plight is that you can't stockpile on the farm anymore. 

[NonMint]

If it shows anything about the current state of the NHL, Toronto's plight is that you can't stockpile on the farm anymore.

I'm curious as to what you mean by this?

If anything, the lack of stockpiles on the farm have crippled Toronto. They have not been able to replenish the losses of NHL talent and are forced to overpay though Free Agency and Trades (that usually involve more draft picks) to "stock the cupbard" as it were. The fact that they don't have a stock of prospects doesn't point the fault at stockpiling, but the lack of it IMO.

-NonMint